Advice on PC Spec.

[TonyCarter]

Fair enough - sorry to badger the point but if I opt for Pro P44 over P41+, what would the difference be noticeable in gaming or in daily browsing/use of non-intensive programs. Or is it just going to shave a few seconds off boot time?

See my previous post...

Advice on PC Spec.

Currently looking at three options: Option 1 (budget maxed out): Case LIAN LI LANCOOL 215 GAMING CASE Processor (CPU) AMD Ryzen 5 7600X Six Core CPU (4.7GHz-5.3GHz/38MB CACHE/AM5) Motherboard ASUS® TUF GAMING B650-PLUS WIFI (AM5, DDR5, PCIe 4.0, Wi-Fi 6) Memory (RAM) 32GB Corsair VENGEANCE...

www.pcspecialist.co.uk

Without a reference point, you won't notice any difference, and some of the new AMD motherboards take longer too boot anyway due to the memory training/testing functions they go through on POST to ensure the RAM is performing at its best.

But if you went from a 500MB/s SATA SSD to a 5000MB/s m.2. SSD (on an identical build) you would notice a snappier interface, apps loading quicker, websites rendering quicker, AV scans happening quicker, Windows updates and app updates taking less time.

It all adds up, but it depends what your used to and how annoyed you get waiting an couple of seconds for something you know should only take 5 seconds to launch (and then spend an hour going down a rabbit hole to find out what's wrong with your machine...or maybe that's just me).

 

[cossinsmatthew]

See my previous post...

Advice on PC Spec.

Currently looking at three options: Option 1 (budget maxed out): Case LIAN LI LANCOOL 215 GAMING CASE Processor (CPU) AMD Ryzen 5 7600X Six Core CPU (4.7GHz-5.3GHz/38MB CACHE/AM5) Motherboard ASUS® TUF GAMING B650-PLUS WIFI (AM5, DDR5, PCIe 4.0, Wi-Fi 6) Memory (RAM) 32GB Corsair VENGEANCE...

www.pcspecialist.co.uk

Ah but in your previous post you say a faster SSD makes things faster. I am asking will I notice it. I appreciate it may be a hard question to answer and essentially something you need to guess. But essentially I am seeing forum posts suggesting most applications would not make use of those high speeds in the Pro, and that the P41+ would be more than sufficient and anothing greater would not be noticeable.

For example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/ln4jms

Or this article (https://medium.com/@paulgoll/sata-v... NVMe drives are,SSDs isn't always noticeable.) which shows this:

I appreciate this is comparing SATA and NVMe but considering that the massive speed difference (far greater than the gap between Pro and P41+) just results in 20 seconds of difference in boot time and that is considered by that article as the main benefit, the difference between the Pro and P41+ is likely just a few seconds a boot, maybe a second or two difference when booting games, and otherwise nothing noticeable (for my needs - which don't involve large video editing etc.), surely getting the Pro is unnecessary?

 

[SpyderTracks]

Ah but in your previous post you say a faster SSD makes things faster. I am asking will I notice it. I appreciate it may be a hard question to answer and essentially something you need to guess. But essentially I am seeing forum posts suggesting most applications would not make use of those high speeds in the Pro, and that the P41+ would be more than sufficient and anothing greater would not be noticeable.

For example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/ln4jms

Or this article (https://medium.com/@paulgoll/sata-vs-nvme-ssd-performance-comparison-dce3dd0b0344#:~:text=On paper, NVMe drives are,SSDs isn't always noticeable.) which shows this:
View attachment 41471
I appreciate this is comparing SATA and NVMe but considering that the massive speed difference (far greater than the gap between Pro and P41+) just results in 20 seconds of difference in boot time and that is considered by that article as the main benefit, the difference between the Pro and P41+ is likely just a few seconds a boot, maybe a second or two difference when booting games, and otherwise nothing noticeable (for my needs - which don't involve large video editing etc.), surely getting the Pro is unnecessary?

That's simply windows boot, it's the entire performance of everything running on windows that benefits.

So it's the speed apps open at, the speed processes take to load.

The only thing that doesn't benefit from all out speed is game load times, they have a ceiling currently of around Gen 3 NVME

Reddit is rarely a good source of information, I'm sure you realise that, there is a reason it's a meme on the web. I'm not sure I understand why you're wanting to cut corners so drastically, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[TonyCarter]

To answer your question...No, I don't think you'd notice it was a slower boot drive, unless you had side-by-side tests of a slow SATA one and a Gen4/Gen5 m.2 SSD.

I know it's a lot to take in, but be careful of looking just as read speeds, as the write speeds are usually more important...and if there's a huge difference between read & write, then the whole process becomes bottlenecked by the write speed.

Also, remember that these are peak sequential read/write speeds, usually for short periods, tested on specific file sizes.

The random speeds are probably more important (but much less advertised) and is more like normal boot drive usage scenario with 10s of thousands of tiny operations a second....but the performance scales in a similar way to the MB/s - so you'd aim for a drive that has a similar read/write speed to mitigate this (it's not that simple due to cache size, type of cache, controllers, etc. - but that's a whole other world of pain you don't want to go into).

 

[cossinsmatthew]

...also, be careful of looking just as read speeds, as the write speeds are usually more important...and if there's a huge difference between read & write, then the whole process becomes bottlenecked by the write speed.

Also, remember that these are peak sequential read/write speeds, usually for short periods, tested on specific file sizes.

The random speeds are probably more important (but much less advertised) as this is more like normal boot drive usage scenario with 10s of thousands of tiny operations a second....but they scale in a similar way to the MB/s.

I remember reading something to that effect (the random speeds being more useful). Annoying yes that they are harder to find and compare.

That's simply windows boot, it's the entire performance of everything running on windows that benefits.

So it's the speed apps open at, the speed processes take to load.

The only thing that doesn't benefit from all out speed is game load times, they have a ceiling currently of around Gen 3 NVME

Reddit is rarely a good source of information, I'm sure you realise that, there is a reason it's a meme on the web. I'm not sure I understand why you're wanting to cut corners so drastically, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I wouldn’t say it’s a drastic corner cut to opt for the P41+ rather than the Pro - they are both very good drives.

Again I understand that faster SSD means faster processes and app loading times. But what I’m trying to understand is the noticeable impact. If chrome takes 2s to launch with the P41+ and 1s with the pro, it’s twice as fast - in theory that’s amazing value for an extra 20 quid. In practice I won’t notice and I don’t care so it’s not worth it. And if that 20 quid means exceeding the budget I have set, I won’t do it if I can reasonably avoid it without a noticeable difference in performance. The way I see it is that as soon as that budget barrier of 1.5k is breached well then what’s to stop me from adding other little improvements here and there and before you know it you’ve added a couple hundred quid extra.

 

[cossinsmatthew]

To summarise:

Option within Budget:
Case
LIAN LI LANCOOL 215 GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 5 7600X Six Core CPU (4.7GHz-5.3GHz/38MB CACHE/AM5)
Motherboard
ASUS® TUF GAMING B650-PLUS WIFI (AM5, DDR5, PCIe 4.0, Wi-Fi 6)
Memory (RAM)
32GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR5 6000MHz (2 x 16GB)
Graphics Card
16GB NVIDIA GEFORCE RTX 4060 Ti - HDMI, DP, LHR
Graphics Card Support Bracket
NONE (BRACKET INCLUDED AS STANDARD ON 4070 Ti / RX 7700 XT AND ABOVE)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
512GB SOLIDIGM P41+ GEN 4 M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD (up to 3500MB/sR, 1625MB/sW)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
1TB SOLIDIGM P41+ GEN 4 M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD (up to 4125MB/sR, 2950MB/sW)
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W RMe SERIES™ MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1.5 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
DeepCool AK400 Performance CPU Cooler ZERO DARK
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Network Card
ONBOARD 2.5Gbe LAN PORT
USB/Thunderbolt Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Windows 11 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
Windows 10/11 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Unlimited Downloads from Online Account
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft 365® (Operating System Required)
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Google Chrome™
Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty (1 Year Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 4 to 6 working days
Price: £1,490.00 including VAT and Delivery

Unique URL to re-configure: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/amd-am5-pc/mAXAbN3Tjt/

Option exceeding Budget:
Case
LIAN LI LANCOOL 215 GAMING CASE
Processor (CPU)
AMD Ryzen 5 7600X Six Core CPU (4.7GHz-5.3GHz/38MB CACHE/AM5)
Motherboard
ASUS® TUF GAMING B650-PLUS WIFI (AM5, DDR5, PCIe 4.0, Wi-Fi 6)
Memory (RAM)
32GB Corsair VENGEANCE DDR5 6000MHz (2 x 16GB)
Graphics Card
16GB NVIDIA GEFORCE RTX 4060 Ti - HDMI, DP, LHR
Graphics Card Support Bracket
NONE (BRACKET INCLUDED AS STANDARD ON 4070 Ti / RX 7700 XT AND ABOVE)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
512GB SOLIDIGM P44 PRO GEN 4 M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD (up to 7000MB/sR, 4700MB/sW)
1st M.2 SSD Drive
1TB SOLIDIGM P41+ GEN 4 M.2 NVMe PCIe SSD (up to 4125MB/sR, 2950MB/sW)
Power Supply
CORSAIR 750W RMe SERIES™ MODULAR 80 PLUS® GOLD, ULTRA QUIET
Power Cable
1 x 1.5 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Processor Cooling
DeepCool AK400 Performance CPU Cooler ZERO DARK
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
Sound Card
ONBOARD 6 CHANNEL (5.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Network Card
ONBOARD 2.5Gbe LAN PORT
USB/Thunderbolt Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 2 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Windows 11 Home 64 Bit - inc. Single Licence
Operating System Language
United Kingdom - English Language
Windows Recovery Media
Windows 10/11 Multi-Language Recovery Image - Unlimited Downloads from Online Account
Office Software
FREE 30 Day Trial of Microsoft 365® (Operating System Required)
Anti-Virus
NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE
Browser
Google Chrome™
Warranty
3 Year Silver Warranty (1 Year Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Delivery
STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time
Standard Build - Approximately 4 to 6 working days
Price: £1,511.00 including VAT and Delivery

Unique URL to re-configure: https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/amd-am5-pc/hSpK72xQUc/

Both I think good PCs - I will certainly notice the upgrade over the old set-up - though I understand that the preference of the forum is for the latter. A choice for me to think about but, otherwise, does everything look good!

 

[TonyCarter]

The way I see it is that as soon as that budget barrier of 1.5k is breached we’ll then what’s to stop me from adding other little improvements here and there and before you know it you’ve added a couple hundred quid extra.

It is a very slippery slope, and much easier when it's someone else's money...although we are all current customers of PCS as well.

 

[cossinsmatthew]

It is a very slippery slope, and much easier when it's someone else's money...although we are all current customers of PCS as well.

Haha indeed

 

[Ekans2011]

Put it this way, I'd rather send you the extra £20 out of my own pocket than recommend a PCS one.

I would gladly do the same for a good MB and a fair PSU: Just £23 (about an hour's pay); I understand that expenses are subjective, I'm not an idiot, but I can't believe they're an insurmountable barrier.

 

[SpyderTracks]

It always comes down to this. People who don’t understand how to design a PC will have their current requirements in mind.

People that do understand will factor in requirements 10 years down the line.

Im willing to be it won’t be that long before a SATA SSD is not capable of being an OS drive on modern windows.

Its a similar story with the PSU, no matter what you think now, you’ll NEED to upgrade something down the line, without question the first thing (so long as its properly designed) will be the gpu, nothing you can do to prevent that. Limit the PSU, limit your upgrade choices or face £100 or more extra on your bill than you need plus having to do a full rebuild to accomplish what could have just been slotted in.

Doesn’t matter how eloquently you put the case across, some people just can’t see past the now.

 

[Ekans2011]

Okay, fair enough. I am persuaded with regards to the motherboard. With regards to PSU, I do plan to stick with this for many years without upgrading - as games get newer, my settings will decrease - I just wanted to be able to run current and near-future games (next 3 years) at high settings but games further away I will be happier at medium and eventually lower settings so won't be changing GPU for a while. I have to draw the line budget-wise somewhere so getting a PSU that meets my current needs with still a significant headroom for spikes and smaller upgrades seems the best place to do it without sacrificing performance.

My purpose is not to persuade people, but rather to make it understandable that saving 2-3% of the entire system cost and then being forced to rebuild is never a wise move. This rationale applies to all fields, not just computers.

It's better to spend a bit more today than to spend a lot more tomorrow.

I'll give you an example outside of the PC world: I want to buy a guitar and an amplifier; instead of spending a few hundred euros on a crappy combo, I'm going to wait and save up for a quality guitar and a decent valve amplifier. I'm not a pro musician, but I don't like to waste the money either.

If you can't afford to go over budget by even a pound, it's probably better to wait a couple of months more (new CPUs and GPUs will be released soon) and then build a system based on criteria.

 

[cossinsmatthew]

Thank you all for your help. I have just completed my order. I opted for all your recommendations with regards to faster P44 Pro SSD for OS in addition to P41+ SSD for storage, TUF Gaming Motherboard, 6000MHz DDR5, Ryzen 7600 (though I did up it to the 7600X). I have gone with the 750W PSU (which is an increase on my original choice of 650W) but I have decided against the 850W. At the end of the day, I simply won't be upgrading my GPU for many many years (e.g. 8-10) - I have had the same PC for almost a decade and other than adding another 16GB of RAM at the same speed and an extra HDD, I haven't made significant upgrades - I just accept that with each year that new games come out my settings may have to dip incrementally lower. Since we are all throwing £20 into the ring, I will bet you £20 that ignoring damage I won't upgrade my GPU for at least 7 years 😂 and I know that might seem crazy/wrong to you all but honestly this GPU is far beyond what I am used to and I will be very happy with it for a long time.
I have different standards to you guys so I have determined the 750W will serve me well and will allow for any smaller upgrades I may make over the next couple of years (additional hard drives etc.). I'm less of the constantly upgrading type and more of the make a solid purchase, run it for a decade till its on its last legs, and then repeat type. And at the point of repeat I make a big jump so likely would be making a much more significant jump from 750W to in excess of 1000W rather than to 850W so would need to change it either way. For reference my last PC had a 320W PSU. Plus I am aware that PSUs tend to run at the best efficiency at around 50% load and that should be about right with the 750W. But yeah just a slight difference in philosophy that better fits how I intend to use the PC.

Again, many thanks for your help - looking forward to seeing it built, having it delivered, and booting it up!

- side note do I need to contact PCS to specify that they put the OS on the P44 Pro? It is down as the first drive - is that sufficient?

 

[Ekans2011]

Thank you all for your help. I have just completed my order. I opted for all your recommendations with regards to faster P44 Pro SSD for OS in addition to P41+ SSD for storage, TUF Gaming Motherboard, 6000MHz DDR5, Ryzen 7600 (though I did up it to the 7600X). I have gone with the 750W PSU (which is an increase on my original choice of 650W) but I have decided against the 850W. At the end of the day, I simply won't be upgrading my GPU for many many years (e.g. 8-10) - I have had the same PC for almost a decade and other than adding another 16GB of RAM at the same speed and an extra HDD, I haven't made significant upgrades - I just accept that with each year that new games come out my settings may have to dip incrementally lower. Since we are all throwing £20 into the ring, I will bet you £20 that ignoring damage I won't upgrade my GPU for at least 7 years 😂 and I know that might seem crazy/wrong to you all but honestly this GPU is far beyond what I am used to and I will be very happy with it for a long time.
I have different standards to you guys so I have determined the 750W will serve me well and will allow for any smaller upgrades I may make over the next couple of years (additional hard drives etc.). I'm less of the constantly upgrading type and more of the make a solid purchase, run it for a decade till its on its last legs, and then repeat type. And at the point of repeat I make a big jump so likely would be making a much more significant jump from 750W to in excess of 1000W rather than to 850W so would need to change it either way. For reference my last PC had a 320W PSU. Plus I am aware that PSUs tend to run at the best efficiency at around 50% load and that should be about right with the 750W. But yeah just a slight difference in philosophy that better fits how I intend to use the PC.

Again, many thanks for your help - looking forward to seeing it built, having it delivered, and booting it up!

- side note do I need to contact PCS to specify that they put the OS on the P44 Pro? It is down as the first drive - is that sufficient?

Very pity ; without the necessary upgrades, that PC will struggle already in a couple of years, and you won't even have enough margin to make them unless you rebuild. Pity, really.

You cannot make comparisons with your old PC from the previous decade; technology changes at an ever-increasing rate and cannot be ignored, but If you're okay with a system that will only handle a dead 1080p resolution, low details, and framerates below 60, then that's fine.

Happy you, happy everyone.